Michelle: Welcome to Decluttering 55 Plus with Michelle Passoff. I’m Michelle Pasloff. I have long been an author, consultant, and speaker on clutter as a life enhancement tool. In the decluttering 55 plus conversation, nothing has changed, but our life circumstances have, and the road ahead is uncharted. That’s why on this podcast, we go beyond the definition of clutter as cleaning up papers, clothes, and other stuff, and take a deep dive into the areas of life that may be confounding and confronting.

Michelle: And we call that clutter because the path ahead is not clear. So instead of sweeping what may be bewildering you under the carpet, putting it off for another day or forever, on this podcast, we bring topics into the light of day to discuss. topics like health and fitness, writing your life story, digital decluttering, deciding where to move and what to do next.

Michelle: Putting on our financial papers and legal papers in order and even making final arrangements. Our aim is to talk about things, gain clarity and get things done. It’s a clutter cleaning process that will invigorate your life and enable us to create a legacy, not a mess. Before we jump into today’s topic, I want to invite you to go to our website,

Michelle: decluttering55plus. com and sign up on the Let’s Connect page so we can send news and information to you and hear and share what’s on your mind. Tell us what you think, what you learned, what you want to know, and what’s happening in your life that can inform and inspire others. Again, go to our website decluttering55plus.

Michelle: com and sign up on the Let’s Connect page. Like us on Facebook, follow us on Instagram, write a letter, send a carrier pigeon, we want to hear from you. Let’s grow a community of support. With that being said, let’s go to today’s topic, estate planning. Today, we have as our guest, Ray Konsal. Ray is a managing partner of Cozen O’Connor in Cherry Hill, New Jersey, where one of the areas of law he has practiced for more than 40 years is estate planning.

Michelle: I’ve known Ray for more than 20 years because he was my parents estate attorney, and when the time came, I worked with him to execute my parents wishes. And what a job that was. One thing I can tell you about Ray, other than that he’s a sports fan, the father of four boys and the grandfather of seven, is that he’s fierce, but gentlemanly.

Michelle: Welcome, Ray. It’s so nice to see you.

Ray Console: Thank you for having me, Michelle.

Michelle: You’re welcome. You don’t come into this world alone and you don’t go out of this world alone. It takes a team of people to take care of you when you have become incapacitated or when you die. Let’s talk about what goes on on that team and who the best players will be.

Michelle: We always think of writing a will first, but there’s a business to take care of before you pass away, when you might become sick or too feeble to make decisions regarding your health and fitness. So let’s talk about who should be on your team.

Ray Console: Sure. It starts with really figuring out who are the most important people in your life, who are the people that you’re responsible for, and who are the people that you would hope would be responsible for you if you’re not able to take care of your own affairs.

Ray Console: And that usually starts with your family, or perhaps close friends, or perhaps professional advisors. That’s kind of the team that we, uh, tell people to look at when you begin to make these decisions and start this process of planning. Either for your incapacity. You

Michelle: know, I always thought of, oh, when I die, I have to have a will and a trust or whatever, whatever.

Michelle: But there’s the whole period of time before you pass away where you might be an active adult and then move into a phase where you become incapacitated. Who should be the first on your list to be on that team, so to speak? Who do you need to rely on for, let’s say, your health care?

Ray Console: Sure. So, There are really sort of two aspects of life that we, uh, plan for, uh, prior to death.

Ray Console: And one is if you become incapacitated and you can’t take care of your financial affairs, the other is you’re incapacitated and you can’t take care of your medical needs. Yeah. And so you need, you need people to act as your surrogates, act as your representatives in both capacities. And for most people, if they’re married and they’re in a solid marriage, the logical person is the spouse.

Ray Console: And then beyond that, most people will look to adult children, or perhaps siblings, or other people in their extended family. But not everybody has those people, and so some people have a deep bench, and some people have a non existent bench of people to rely upon in that situation.

Michelle: So in the situation of your healthcare, let’s start with that.

Michelle: What is that called?

Ray Console: So the, the legal document, uh, for healthcare goes by different names in different places. In, I’m a New Jersey attorney, we refer to it as a living will. Other places refer to it as an advanced directive or a healthcare power of attorney.

Michelle: And do you need a piece of paper giving that person the authority to take care of you and make decisions?

Ray Console: Yes. Uh, my profession is full of pieces of paper.

Michelle: I know we spent it in the clutter business. We spent an entire life trying to get rid of paper. Now we have to make sure we have the papers. So what kind of papers does a health care surrogate need?

Ray Console: So they need a legal document. And again, it goes by the various names that I mentioned before.

Ray Console: But it essentially does It designates a person to be your representative. And we’ll call that person a healthcare representative. Although it can go by other names. Health care surrogate. Health care power of attorney. It all means the same thing. It’s the person that you’ve designated to make medical decisions for you if you cannot make them for yourself.

Ray Console: And then the second aspect of that document will involve a specific directive. Your, your expression of your wishes as to what kinds of treatment you want or don’t want and under what circumstances you want it. And this could be end of life decisions. as well as other things.

Michelle: So, um, where did, like this, do you have to show this piece of paper to every doctor you go to or, um, how does that work?

Ray Console: Yeah, your, your, your physician, if you have a primary care physician who sort of quarterbacks your healthcare, that person should have that document on record. If you go to a facility for a procedure, a hospital or an outpatient center, they are required by law to ask you whether you have such a document.

Ray Console: And in fact, in many states, including New Jersey, they’re required to give you advice about how to get one if you don’t have a document. So yeah, this document kind of travels with you.

Michelle: Can it be original or it has to be, um, can it be a copy?

Ray Console: Yeah, most places will accept a copy. A lot of times what they’ll do is they’ll just scan it in and make it part of your health record.

Michelle: Okay, well that’s a, that’s a good idea. And what if you don’t have one? What if you don’t have that health care surrogate? What happens to you then?

Ray Console: Well, that’s, that’s could be a problem. Um, most places will sort of accept the spouse as a kind of de facto health care representative, which may or may not be what you want.

Ray Console: Again, depending on, you know, your circumstances. Or

Michelle: their, their health care, their condition. Um,

Ray Console: sure. Um, so the, the, having this document, It adds a level of certainty to it because you can then control who the person is that’s going to be your proxy in those situations. And it also makes it easier for the people who are the health care providers because they know who they can talk to.

Ray Console: You know, they’re under an obligation not to disclose protected health care information to just anybody, right? There are privacy rules, there are HIPAA laws that govern that, and they can be held accountable if they do.

Michelle: So if I get it right, you should give these documents to your, your, the, your circle of physicians that take care of you so that they have it on record. And then, um, you know, we think that in the day of digital technology, that you don’t have to keep hard copies of things somewhere to pull out when you need it.

Michelle: But I always recommend that people have a free copy. You know, paper file for their important documents at home so they can pull that out when, uh, the time comes. Do you have a backup for a health care surrogate or is one designated person enough?

Ray Console: I always. Uh, in favor of backups for, for any documents. Um, so you have your primary person and then you can have one or more successors designated in the document.

Michelle: Okay, well, um, what, what stops, how much, like, would you say, are there statistics on this? Like, do most people have a healthcare surrogate? And who takes care of you if, if you don’t have one?

Ray Console: Yeah. So, um, probably as many people that have wills have, um, these living wills or advanced directives because it’s usually part of a package that you would get if you were working with somebody like me.

Ray Console: And, and so, you know, uh, I don’t know what the statistics are, probably not as good as we would like them to be. I

Michelle: actually, I actually looked it up before I came here this morning and 67 percent of the population doesn’t have wills. So if they don’t have wills and it comes with the wills, it stands to reason a lot of people don’t.

Michelle: So one of the things that you want to get done out there is, um, to get your will and include in it. Uh, information about health care surrogate, the health care surrogate isn’t necessarily the financial surrogate or is that what it’s called somebody who’s going to take care of your finances when you’re not capable to manage that?

Michelle: How does that work?

Ray Console: Sure. So the legal document we use. To put somebody in place to manage your financial affairs. If you’re not able to do it for yourself is a power of attorney and I’ll expand on that a little bit. We, you know, refer to it as technically as a general durable power of attorney general meaning that it allows that person to do it for you.

Ray Console: really everything that you could do with respect to managing your financial affairs. Durable, meaning that the power of attorney exists even though you no longer have legal capacity. Um, and there are statutes that in states that allow that to happen, uh, which is of course what make these powers of attorney useful because the whole idea is that it is used if and when you become unable to manage your own affairs, either temporarily or perhaps permanently.

Ray Console: But it only exists as long as you exist. When you die, the power of attorney automatically terminates and at that point If you have a will, your will would take over.

Michelle: So there’s a lot of things that are difficult to confront. Why don’t people, why doesn’t, why doesn’t everybody have this? 67 percent of people don’t have wills and therefore don’t have, you know, these things thought out in advance.

Michelle: Is that because they think they’re, they don’t have enough money or they’re going to be fine forever? Or, uh, what’s the thought process, um, that people believe that they don’t need this stuff?

Ray Console: So I think the psychology behind it is probably all of those things. Um, one, people don’t want to confront their mortality or their, you know, potential incapacity.

Ray Console: So there’s just sort of a head in the sand approach to that. I think there’s also the feeling that some people have that, well, I don’t really have enough to be meaningful, um, which is, you know, not true for most people. Everybody has something and, you know, you don’t want to leave. chaos behind. Um, and probably the third, and I would say far less of a barrier is the cost.

Ray Console: I don’t find a lot of people to say, well, I would do this, but for the cost.

Michelle: Do you get, um, the health care surrogate and financial, uh, surrogate papers separate from the will or they’re together and therefore, um, you’re going to pay for the whole package or can you go ahead and get your health care and financial surrogates in order, um, and start saving up for that will if you have to save up for it?

Michelle: I don’t think it’s that expensive, but nevertheless, can you get them separately or do they always come as a package?

Ray Console: No, they, they’re, they’re, they can be done separately. Oh, okay. And, and, and, you know, and particularly I would say with the living wills. Um, there are forms out there that are published by organizations, um, sometimes even by, um, uh, state agencies that sort of encourage you to, You know, even if you don’t go to an attorney to have one sort of customized for your needs, here’s here’s sort of a template that you can use.

Ray Console: So that’s probably the easiest document for somebody to access if that’s all they wanted to do. Um, the power of attorney and the wills, you kind of need some professional help with those documents.

Michelle: Okay. So besides, um, the healthcare surrogate and the financial surrogate, is there anybody else who should be on your team in the period of time between, um, you being an active, uh, senior to, um, passing away?

Michelle: Is there anybody else that you’re going to need or does, is that going to cover your bases?

Ray Console: I’d say that covers your legal bases, but yeah, there are other sort of Practical, uh, situations where you might have other team members, like for example, if you have You probably have some financial advisor, somebody who you get financial advice from.

Ray Console: Um, maybe you have an accountant that you work with or a tax return preparer, somebody that you see at least once a year to do your taxes. And maybe you get some advice from them. Um, if you have life insurance, maybe you have a life insurance person who’s given you advice about that. So people sort of pick up advisors along the way.

Ray Console: And usually by the, when they come to me, a lot of times they come to me for, from other advisors, right? Their advisors will be, you know, looking at their finances and say, Hey, by the way, do you have a will? And if they say no, or have, you know, I did one 20 years ago, maybe I’d say, well, you know, you better have it updated.

Michelle: Yeah, you make it you make a good point. If you choose somebody today, and you’re healthy and well for a long time, too many people have to review and change who their assigned supporters are.

Ray Console: They should, uh, certainly consider it periodically. This isn’t a one time thing necessarily where you, you know, just put it in a drawer and you’re good for the next 50 years.

Ray Console: Changes and people come and go in and out of your life for all variety of reasons. And so I tell people, look, even if you can’t really think about anything dramatic that’s happened in your life, at least pull the documents out and look at them every four or five years just to make sure there’s not something dramatic that has to be addressed.

Michelle: So you not only have to pull yourself up by the bootstraps and, uh, get your healthcare surrogate and your financial surrogates or whatever they’re calling it in your state, uh, together, um, but you have to review that. So, um, get busy out there and remember, call us. write us, sign up on our Let’s Connect button on the website at decluttering55plus.

Michelle: com. Like us on Facebook, follow us on Instagram, and we’ll see you on the next episode. Thanks for coming.